Does the steamroller effect of supermarkets have the same impacts in the Northern and Southern hemispheres of the planet? How does this model attempt to reinvent itself? What are the consequences for local farming? This is what we wanted to know with this interview between Yuna Chiffoleau, research director at the National Institute of Agronomic Research - INRA, France, and Ange-David Baïmey, coordinator of the NGO GRAIN in Africa.What are the impacts of large-scale distribution on farmers in the world? Ange-David: The development of this model, especially in Asia, in countries like China, where the expansion was very fast after the country joined the WTO, had serious consequences for local farmers. Large-scale distribution has had another impact on eating habits: very nutritious traditional foods have been abandoned by the population in favour of the junk food imported via supermarkets. This obviously leads to health problems. In Africa, street vendors have also been affected by the arrival of these supermarkets. They have also tried to organise a resistance, with the support of farmers. Yuna: In France, supermarkets are losing the market share. They are trying to recreate an image and this includes the development of local products. But these are in fact mostly products from medium or large farms, able to provide relatively standardised products in large quantities and from conventional agriculture. This does not correspond to the expectations of consumers for local organic products from small producers. There is therefore a misunderstanding on the local aspect of production, maintained by the lack of transparency of the sector. Ange-David: In Africa, it's more the opposite: before moving to Africa, supermarkets conducted sociological studies. They saw the emergence of a middle class that likes Western products, coming from "chic" countries. These more "luxurious" products also mix with local products sold at the same price as on the market. This strategy of conquest allows mass distribution to control not only the imported products sector but also the local products market, at the risk of wiping out all street shops and small local production.Is this expansion of supermarkets in Africa likely to kill local agriculture for the benefit of industrial agriculture?Ange-David: Yes, because the specifications imposed by the large retailers are much too demanding for local agriculture which has difficulty in meeting the sanitary standards, quality, quantity and price required. This requires too much investment and therefore favours industrial agriculture.Do you think that it is possible to reform the large-scale distribution from within, such as Carrefour's "Act for Food" campaign advocates for access to organic products for all?Yuna: Not at a first glance... In France, the farmers who suffer the most, are mainly those of average size, whose products are put in competition with those imported from other countries like Spain, for the south of France. This intermediate agriculture, which is not local, really needs an agro-ecological transition. If retail can bring this type of agriculture to evolve in a more sustainable way without putting too much pressure on it, all the better.By defending access to seeds banned by the European Union and by joining the network "Farms of the Future", Carrefour clearly shows its desire to move towards a more sustainable agriculture. But producers aren’t fooled, they know that mass retailing also requires a lot in return from them, even when they buy directly from the source, without going through central purchasing methods. They are asked for example for sales demonstrations in the store and deliver products that are ripe and tasty, but which can be kept for a long time, which is hardly compatible! Some stores are also going so far as to buy farms, in order to directly control the sector, with farmers who are salaried.Is it sincere as an approach? Or is it mostly marketing?Yuna: There is a form of cheating. Local agriculture aims to keep old, local varieties alive. The supermarkets will ride on this fashion of the old varieties, selling for example fake "heart of beef" tomatoes. As they cannot keep this name, they will invent a new name that comes close ... to designate hybrid industrial tomatoes, all colours, which ultimately deceives the customer. Supermarkets are able to gain a foothold everywhere in the name of creating jobs. What do you think of this argument? Ange-David: On the contrary, it seems that for one job created in a supermarket, we see disappear from 3 to 5 jobs elsewhere, sometimes more. It is difficult to have statistics on this type of phenomenon because we must also take into account a form of unfair competition: small businesses will pay proportionally much more taxes than large retailers and therefore participate more in the national economy than the big Western groups.Yuna: We should not just look at the quantitative aspect of job creation, but also the quality of these jobs. We know that in hard discount stores there are many precarious jobs, difficult working conditions, occupational diseases ... Moreover, the robotization of cash registers is likely to lose a lot of jobs in the sector. It is not yet clear how cashiers can be assigned to other tasks, even if the mass market is talking about making them "quality consultants". What do you think of the emergence of e-commerce and the arrival of stakeholders like Ali Baba in the agro-food sector? Ange-David: There is a big risk with this model. Who will be responsible for food poisoning? And what will be the impact on local employment? The situation of the local farmers becomes more and more difficult, many commit suicide, at home as in Europe, because they see no future. Yuna: In France, there are a lot of changes, with big stores trying to reinvent their methods, with e-commerce but also new locations in the city center. Some people really want to make things happen from the inside and we can find very ethical partnerships locally.But I also saw a lot of cheating, opportunism, recovery... That said, we are not worried, because there are also other circuits that develop, shops producers and producers, Cooperative supermarkets, farmers' drives... They are also increasingly relying on e-commerce and, more broadly, on digital technology. We have also launched a new research program on this theme to see what will happen.Yuna Chiffoleau Yuna Chiffoleau, agricultural engineer and sociologist, research director at INRA in the department "Science for action and development" Author of the book "Short food circuits, between market and social innovation", published by Editions Erès in January 2019. Ange-David BaïmeySociologist based in Abidjan, works for the NGO GRAIN in Africa that is interested in supporting farmers' organizations all over the world. Coordinator of the GRAIN program in Africa. Interview by Roland d'Hoop Source: OXFAM Belgium